Archie vs Arwen. No, seriously.
Mar. 4th, 2003 03:44 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
meteordustOne of the things I've been thinking about is the nature of the Hornblower fandom. I mean, you've got this famous, beloved series of books which has been around for several decades - a series of books which has been very influential and has a significant fanbase. And then you've got this new adaptation - a series of movies with dashing young actors which has brought about a large influx of new fans.
Sounds familiar? Maybe it is. We've recently witnessed something similar happen in another fandom - namely, The Lord of the Rings.
With LOTR, most of the diehard fans like me have been in love with the books for years. You have fond memories of the characters and certain views about the story. And then - and then people come along and make movies out of them. Sure, it's wonderful. But you gripe about the changes, and the inaccuracies, and the horde of squealing newbies. And I wonder, is that what it's like for the old school Hornblower fans?
It's an interesting question for me, because I've entered Hornblower fandom via the movies, not the books. So this time, I'm on the other side of the fence. I *have* started reading the books, because I'm intrigued and I want to find out what the original story was like. But I'm expecting that no matter what changes they made in adapting the books - and I know there are some major changes - it won't alter my appreciation of the movies. I don't know - maybe you just fall in love with whatever you encounter first.
I think one of the most interesting points of contention would concern Archie Kennedy. From what I can gather, he is an extremely minor character in Mr Midshipman Hornblower. However, in the movies, he plays a significant role. In fact, I would say he's the third most important character, after Horatio and Pellew.
It makes me wonder how fans of the books feel about what the producers have done with Archie. It's kind of funny to think they've pretty much created this character, fleshing him out from nothing more than a few brief paragraphs. I mean, it's sort of like Haldir in LOTR, who in the books guides the Fellowship through the woods of Lothlorien, and then is never mentioned again. But in the movies, he reappears in The Two Towers, leads a contingent of elves to join the last stand at Helm's Deep, and dies tragically in battle. Some people even think there are hints of sexual tension between him and Aragorn.
The other example that comes to mind is... Arwen. Arwen appears only briefly in the books, although her character is important to understanding where Aragorn is coming from. But in the movies she plays quite a larger role, much to the initial horror of purists, including, yes, myself. When you look at it this way, Hornblower purists would have even more to complain about, since Arwen at least had a deep emotional connection to Aragorn that might therefore justify expanding her role, while the original Archie Kennedy didn't have anything similar.
Now, the other thing this is relevant to is the whole Horatio/Bush dynamic. From what I gather in the books, their relationship is really important, yet in the movies it takes a backseat to the Horatio/Archie relationship. For one thing, Bush doesn't even make his appearance until the fifth movie, and even then the relationship isn't developed much until the seventh movie, when Archie isn't around. So you've got Horatio/Archie pretty much in the foreground for six movies, which is a significant amount of time.
The thing is, if I were a longstanding fan of the the Hornblower books, and had an emotional investment in the Horatio/Bush relationship, I'd probably be a bit peeved to have it shunted aside for this two-bit midshipman. There's another LOTR analogy here, this time with the relationship between Legolas and Gimli. In the books, the development of their friendship is a significant subplot, but onscreen, it's hardly touched on. And Gimli's own role has been watered down, his main purpose now seeming to be comic relief. What you *do* see onscreen is a noticeable Aragorn/Legolas dynamic. I mean, they share a fair number of scenes which look incredibly slashy, even to a Legolas/Gimli supporter like me.
All these parallels are quite interesting, although somewhat unsettling. I'm not sure what conclusions I should draw, except that in future I think I'll be a bit more open-minded about book-to-movie adaptations. Now that I've walked a mile and all that.
Sounds familiar? Maybe it is. We've recently witnessed something similar happen in another fandom - namely, The Lord of the Rings.
With LOTR, most of the diehard fans like me have been in love with the books for years. You have fond memories of the characters and certain views about the story. And then - and then people come along and make movies out of them. Sure, it's wonderful. But you gripe about the changes, and the inaccuracies, and the horde of squealing newbies. And I wonder, is that what it's like for the old school Hornblower fans?
It's an interesting question for me, because I've entered Hornblower fandom via the movies, not the books. So this time, I'm on the other side of the fence. I *have* started reading the books, because I'm intrigued and I want to find out what the original story was like. But I'm expecting that no matter what changes they made in adapting the books - and I know there are some major changes - it won't alter my appreciation of the movies. I don't know - maybe you just fall in love with whatever you encounter first.
I think one of the most interesting points of contention would concern Archie Kennedy. From what I can gather, he is an extremely minor character in Mr Midshipman Hornblower. However, in the movies, he plays a significant role. In fact, I would say he's the third most important character, after Horatio and Pellew.
It makes me wonder how fans of the books feel about what the producers have done with Archie. It's kind of funny to think they've pretty much created this character, fleshing him out from nothing more than a few brief paragraphs. I mean, it's sort of like Haldir in LOTR, who in the books guides the Fellowship through the woods of Lothlorien, and then is never mentioned again. But in the movies, he reappears in The Two Towers, leads a contingent of elves to join the last stand at Helm's Deep, and dies tragically in battle. Some people even think there are hints of sexual tension between him and Aragorn.
The other example that comes to mind is... Arwen. Arwen appears only briefly in the books, although her character is important to understanding where Aragorn is coming from. But in the movies she plays quite a larger role, much to the initial horror of purists, including, yes, myself. When you look at it this way, Hornblower purists would have even more to complain about, since Arwen at least had a deep emotional connection to Aragorn that might therefore justify expanding her role, while the original Archie Kennedy didn't have anything similar.
Now, the other thing this is relevant to is the whole Horatio/Bush dynamic. From what I gather in the books, their relationship is really important, yet in the movies it takes a backseat to the Horatio/Archie relationship. For one thing, Bush doesn't even make his appearance until the fifth movie, and even then the relationship isn't developed much until the seventh movie, when Archie isn't around. So you've got Horatio/Archie pretty much in the foreground for six movies, which is a significant amount of time.
The thing is, if I were a longstanding fan of the the Hornblower books, and had an emotional investment in the Horatio/Bush relationship, I'd probably be a bit peeved to have it shunted aside for this two-bit midshipman. There's another LOTR analogy here, this time with the relationship between Legolas and Gimli. In the books, the development of their friendship is a significant subplot, but onscreen, it's hardly touched on. And Gimli's own role has been watered down, his main purpose now seeming to be comic relief. What you *do* see onscreen is a noticeable Aragorn/Legolas dynamic. I mean, they share a fair number of scenes which look incredibly slashy, even to a Legolas/Gimli supporter like me.
All these parallels are quite interesting, although somewhat unsettling. I'm not sure what conclusions I should draw, except that in future I think I'll be a bit more open-minded about book-to-movie adaptations. Now that I've walked a mile and all that.
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no subject
Date: 2003-03-04 12:12 am (UTC)I find that I'm not *that* much of an LotR book purist - I thought I was, but I'm much less so than some people.
I'm quite sure you're right about becoming attached to the version you're exposed to first. While I find the Hornblower/Bush relationship interesting, and slashy, it *feels* like a replacement for Horatio/Archie, and I get twinges of resentment because of that. Which is pretty funny, given what you say about the books.
I had no idea they'd expanded Archie's role so much. I find it unsettling, whereas if I'd been told, going in to the films, that this Archie character was hardly in the books at all, I'd have been fine. I'd have watched it and liked him, and still got invested in him and Horatio - and perhaps it's just that I'd have known to hold myself a little back.
Another issue is with respect to one's view on slashy relationships and happy endings. I think Archie/Horatio and Aragorn/Legolas are fairly analogous here. I know that some people (not dissing them at *all* but I'm not one) have a hard time accepting pairings that don't end up together. I don't know if my tolerance of that sort of slash has to do with my view of real life relationships (a relationship that's ended has not necessarily "failed", in my eyes), or just my high tolerance for angst.
Okay, I did have a hard time with the end of Horatio/Archie, but it doesn't make me 'ship them less, or make me less likely to go back to the episodes they had together and revel in their slashiness.
Similarly (despite being a LotR book fan), I *like* Aragorn/Legolas, in spite of knowing it won't turn out "well". And I *also* 'ship Legolas/Gimli, both in the books, and in the movies, and I'm happy they end up together.
I think this ties in to the issue of *knowing* in advance what will happen. Knowing makes things *much* easier compared to having something sprung on one. Especially when the revelation is information that other people have had for years...
Do you know anything about the actual state of Hornblower fandom, and the attitudes in it? I only checked for fanfic *last* time Hornblower was shown, a few years ago. The relative lack of Horatio/Archie now makes more sense to me (as does the significant presence of Major Edrington, which previously had me completely stumped).
I'm just going to go away now with the Archie vs Arwen mental image, thanks.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-05 09:25 am (UTC)I felt strange when I found out too. I'd been looking forward to reading the books and experiencing the original version of the story, and then I learn that someone I'd thought of as a key character isn't. Made me feel as though I'd been living in an alternate universe. Which the movies are, I guess.
Similarly (despite being a LotR book fan), I *like* Aragorn/Legolas, in spite of knowing it won't turn out "well". And I *also* 'ship Legolas/Gimli, both in the books, and in the movies, and I'm happy they end up together.
I enjoyed the Aragorn/Legolas scenes in the movies (how slashy was the whole necklace thing?), even while the book canon fan in me was thinking, "What are you doing making eyes at this guy? Excuse me, remember the dwarf? The companion you end up bringing to the Undying Lands?"
I think this ties in to the issue of *knowing* in advance what will happen. Knowing makes things *much* easier compared to having something sprung on one.
That's a very good point. I think it does make a difference. That way you're not expecting something you're not going to get, and you can better appreciate what there is. (I guess Smallville is probably the ultimate example of Knowing In Advance. And it does add so much resonance to the viewing experience. Not that we aren't all trying to live in denial anyway.)
Do you know anything about the actual state of Hornblower fandom, and the attitudes in it? I only checked for fanfic *last* time Hornblower was shown, a few years ago. The relative lack of Horatio/Archie now makes more sense to me (as does the significant presence of Major Edrington, which previously had me completely stumped).
I've been browsing through some of the Hornblower fanfic archives recently, and I've found no shortage of Horatio/Archie. I guess by now there's been time enough for the movie fans to contribute their share of fanfic.
I've only skimmed the surface of some of the discussion forums out there, so I don't know if what I've seen is representative of the fandom as a whole. There are certainly quite a few forums devoted to the movies, and the fans who post there are (naturally) very enthusiastic about them. I've also seen postings in other Hornblower forums by people who are critical of the adaptation and strongly favour the books.
I'm guessing there would be groups of movie-only fans, groups of book-purist fans, and groups of moderates who enjoy both. I don't know if there's enough overlap to talk about *a* Hornblower fandom anymore. It'd be interesting to hear from someone who's been around since the early days and who could give their view of the shift (or split?) in the fandom.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-06 11:50 pm (UTC)Yes! Such that even Eowyn noticed.
book canon fan in me was thinking, "What are you doing making eyes at this guy? Excuse me, remember the dwarf?
I wonder why I didn't have this reaction. I think it's because there's still so much time, for Legolas and Gimli. I mean, Legolas is only just getting to know him, and realise that he's quite cool after all. I don't mind that he's still getting over Aragorn.
Smallville is probably the ultimate example of Knowing In Advance. And it does add so much resonance to the viewing experience.
Yeah, and in the case of Smallville maybe it *doesn't* make things easier, to know. Well, I guess it adds more angst *now*, but it'll make things easier later. And of course, knowing in general what will happen is different from knowing exactly because you've see the show before, or knowing pretty-much exactly cause it's an adaptation of a book you know. I kind of like the uncertainty created by Peter Jackson changing stuff, like with that cliff. All of a sudden we were in AU territory, where hey, *maybe* Aragorn dies halfway though. Maybe in RotK the encounter with Shelob will go differently?
Also in the middle is a case like Babylon 5, with visions of the future, and where it was made *quite* clear that knowing *what* will happen doesn't mean we know *why*. Actually SV's a bit like that, except in that case we don't even know so precisely what will happen.
I've found no shortage of Horatio/Archie
Is any of it, um, good?
no subject
Date: 2003-03-08 06:10 am (UTC)It's about what you'd expect in any fandom - there's some that's solidly written, some that's pretty ordinary, some that's brilliant, and some that makes you wince and click the back button as soon as the first paragraph hits your eyes.
What's impressive about the good stuff is the level of authenticity - I mean, all the details of sailing and the operation of a ship and what you do with topsails in a storm. I'm scared to think about the amount of research you'd need to do to get a reasonable handle on things.
There seem to be both slash and gen archives out there, but what's pleasantly surprising is that there are quite a few gen fics featuring a very intense Horatio/Archie relationship - and these can be much more enjoyable to read than some of the less well-written slash fics.
no subject
Date: 2003-03-10 09:02 pm (UTC)And yeah, the thought of hte research is quite terrifying.
I'm all for relationship-focused gen - particularly for this pairing. I think that's because we saw so little of their relationship - bits here and there over several years.